Evolution or Creationism?
69A Very Controversial Topic
There is little doubt that of the two or three hot-button issues concerning education in the United States, the one we in Europe have the most difficult time understanding is the supposed debate over whether or not evolution has any scientific credence. Now the old argument about divinely inspired creation, today called Intelligent Design, but what was once known as Creationism, has reared its interesting head like that multi-headed creature spoken about in revelations.
And so the argument goes, God created everything and that is it. No other explanation is needed and any other logic or science that denies this is either (a) Satanically inspired, or (b) simply the musings of fools who refuse to understand that God created everything, from the Universe to the most complex beings on Earth.
Once this Creationism also argued that the earth was merely about 6,000 or so years old. It is difficult for me to get an exact number since different sources list different ages. However, Genesis is believed by some to show exactly how the earth and all living things existing here were created in six days, and then on the seventh day God rested.
A Place which tries to replace science with biblical creationism
A scientific argument, yes or no?
Creationists have more or less changed their tune concerning what to call their ideas. Now they have decided that Intelligent Design is the way to go. It sounds so much more practical, and less religious, even though I would say that fostering their own religious ideology is what they want to replace sound scientific thinking. So, here goes. Some ideas about how Creationism and Evolution differ, and why proponents of each idea believe what they do.
OK, first of all we need to dispense with the usual take on the Theory of evolution. The word Theory in science does not mean just a good guess, as it does in the vernacular. It does mean an idea that has been proven time and again to have deep merit. Thus a theory (small "t" theory) about who murdered the Professor in the game Clue is a vernacular of, here's a few clues, now I'll guess the culprit.
A Theory (capital "T" Theory) in science is the result of hundreds, or even thousands or millions of bits of evidence that form a hypothesis, which after testing, much skepticism and a whole lot of scrutiny, becomes a basis for how something works in nature.
A Law explains to us that something works, such as how the Law of Gravity explains that we don't fly off into outer space on this whirling planet of ours because there is this thing called gravity which prevents such an occurrence. A law does not tell the specifics of the way it works: it merely tells us that these things exist, as proven without flaw or exception over and over again, and we pretty much generally agree that they do. An apple always drops from a tree on the surface of the Earth. Show me a case where, unaided by outside forces such as a cannon blast of horrendously powerful wind, where an apple falls up to the sky, and that will pretty much disprove the Law of Gravity. With evidence such as that, find me a person who does not believe that gravity works and I'll show you someone who is in great need of an education!
Thus Evolution did not become a Scientific Law because it was not reproducible. One could not recreate all the conditions on Earth that were common millions or even billions of years ago, unless one wishes to ruin the conditions that are present here, right now. However, each action of the past leaves clues, sometimes many, sometimes a few, which all lead to a logical and rather pointed conclusion. Yet by doing experiments it was shown beyond doubt that the building blocks of all life were indeed created in conditions similar to what we know existed in very ancient times.
Molecular evolution of lifeforms on Earth.
What Creationists believe: Entropy
In general, since there are several variations on this theme of Creationism, the basic idea of why a creator is needed boils down to a decision that some laws and observations rule out the ability of atoms and molecules to build up into more and more complex systems. A famous example is the application of Newton's Second Law of Thermodynamics, also known as entropy, in which energy goes from a form able to do things, such as work, to a lower and less useful form of thermal energy, heat, which does no work. In a closed system, in which the energy within the system is the ONLY energy being used, this is indeed correct. If no new fuel is added to a steam engine burning coal, the engine will eventually run out of energy to make the engine work. If life were like this, then life itself would be impossible, because we, all of us who dwell on this planet, would constantly go from a state of having energy to a state of having none, and we would die.
Plants would not grow, babies could not be born, etc. However, the Earth, while it is a closed system of sorts, in that we have only the resources & atmosphere available to us in most cases, has a huge input of energy coming from the sun. Our planet only uses a small portion, a mere fraction of the available energy coming each day to warm the planet. Indeed, in an ideal system most of the sun's energy is reflected back out of the atmosphere. Otherwise we'd be a planet similar to Venus, in which huge amounts of energy are trapped there and cause routine temperatures of around 476 degrees Celsius. (Compared to Earth's mean temperature of about 14.6 degrees Celsius) 100 degrees Celsius boils water at sea level, so Venus is a most inhospitable place for Earthly life!
The second law of Thermodynamics isn't really relevant to the idea of Evolution because our system is indeed NOT closed as it would be in an experiment of thermodynamics. Energy is pouring in at a tremendous rate, and thus the idea that evolution is impossible because of entropy does not stand up to scrutiny. It is a non-factor.
Sunlight give us HUGE amounts of energy to fuel Evolution!
What Creationists Believe: Gaps in the Fossil record
Most Creationists will tell us that there are gaps in the fossil record that prove that Evolution did not occur. Well, for some species there are indeed gaps that we may never find. No credible scientist will deny this. Yet, in some species, there are no gaps. and indeed, every year heralds a new series of discoveries about species that are extinct in our times.
A man named Duane Gish was popular in Creationist circles some years back as a scientist who defied and denied Evolution could be true. He said that because of the
"huge gaps" in the fossil record, evolution was little more than a bold guess, a theory with a small "t", about how life came to be on Earth. Well, he is wrong, and fossil records for entire species do indeed exist and conform with every expectation and prediction made by Darwin's model for Evolution made when the Theory was first proposed.
Let's look at the horse and its evolution throughout time. Creationists talk about "kinds" rather than species because they generally believe that God made all the animals in one fell swoop. Some may be extinct, but they were all once around living at the same time. Some people say that because Genesis can be traced back to the start of time, the entire Earth and everything on it is no more than about 6,000 years old. Some Creationists have dropped this idea, but it remains popular among those who tout this idea.
Evolution exists even today!
What Creationists Believe: No new species have been formed since the time of Creation.
This is one that tickles me because we see the evolution of new species from old all the time. It is the "living Evolution lab" for those who want to see Evolution is all its splendor. Yes, new species are evolving!
The survival of the fittest that Darwin touted was not as repugnant to Creationists as were his other ideas, and for more than 150 years Creationists have been feeding us the idea that no new species have evolved, and therefore Evolution is a hoax. Is this true, though? Are there no new species evolving from older species? However sad for Creationists, we see them all the time and have modern records of these evolutions right at hand.
Let's look at the lowly wheat from which we make our daily bread. Over the course of the past few centuries, a new genus called Tritocosecale (Tritacale) has produced many new species and is a very important agricultural plants. There was no Tritocosecale (Tritacale) as we know it today in Biblical times. It was evolved over time to become a large genus with multiple species of what we today simply call wheat. One could include barley, American corn (maize) and other plants that have evolved in the past thousand or so years. Grapes, fruits, etc. are all products of ongoing Evolution. Science has proven this true and no amount of blathering will make it false, anymore than any amount of words will make The Law of Gravity suddenly disappear.
So the "there is no Evolution present today" argument is dead and buried. Evolution occurs!
More proof? A simple fly (Rhagoletis pomonella)has evolved into at least two separate species. One dines of Hawthorn nuts, while the other found its way into eating apples. this took place about 170 years ago. Like Darwin's Finches, which developed into several species over food pressure, this fly now exists in two well-known and distinct species that can not interbreed and have differing mating habits, food requirements and other differences that set them apart. Two species came form one, as Evolution predicts and demands that they do.
Want more proof? Dog lovers know that canine parvovirus evolved from feline parvovirus in the 1970's!
In short, there are hundreds and even possibly thousands of examples of evolution happening all around us, and as these events are examined, studied, recorded and tested, each of them has gone a long way toward proving that Evolution does indeed exist.
What Creationists Believe: The Earth is not more than about 6,000 years old
I was watching a program coming over the satellite from America where a well-known preacher was showing graphic and fascinating pictures of different landscapes and worn-cliffs, and occasionally a few fossils found at high altitudes such as the Himalayas. This, he proclaimed, stabbed at the very heart of Evolution! There were species of clams and other bivalves found at tens of thousands of feet above sea level! That not only proved Noah's Flood, but also that Creation had been the sole mechanism for all life on Earth today! He even went on to state that finding these shells fossilized at such great altitudes showed that a huge die-out caused by the flood was now proven!
Well, I hate to break the bubble, but it proves nothing of the kind. The shells found there were from warm, prehistoric oceans as the great number of warm weather and long-extinct plant fossils and plant impressions also found with those bivalves and other shelled animals. Also, one needs to ask, why were not fossils of animals and humans alive at the supposed time of Noah's Flood not also found there? Why was everything found only and strictly from a time of hot, humid climates? Would not one expect to find a few dead people who had floated up there to have been found? Did anyone find them? No.
Ah! But the Creationist will say, (in direct contradiction to the scientist who claims that the fossil record is still being discovered) - 'We have not had much time to find those things, but they are up there!'
OK, we'll give you time to find human and animal bones fossilized on Mount Everest. And we'll even give you time to prove that they came from the time of Noah, some 4,000 years ago. And of course to prove that you'll need to give up a second wrong belief you hold, that carbon dating and other types of dating of the past are incorrect.
Carbon and isotopic dating in its earliest days were indeed a difficult thing to handle, because they was new and many false (later corrected) ideas about radioactive isotopes were accepted as fact. Later corrections actually made the entire process much more accurate as factored against things like tree rings, sediment layers, etc. There are also many other dating techniques that are today beyond question by all but the most die-hard radicals of Creationism.
Let's also look at some geological evidence. Now Geology is hardly a hot bed of Evolutionary science, and has no stake in this battle between Creationism and Evolution. Indeed, it's rather dull to most of us, although I find these following examples of dating the age of the Earth rather fascinating.
In Wyoming there is a place called the Green River Shales, where literally millions of microscopic varves (layers of alternating marlstone and kerogen) are found. Indeed, there are 6 million such layers in this one place alone! Now tests were done that showed the settling time of each microscopic layer was about 1 year. So the sum total of 6 million layers equals at least 6 million years. IF, as the Creationists would have us believe, these shales were the product of of a world-wide flood in Noah's time, then each layer would have to have been formed at 1 second each! A rather unusual and might I say impossible thing to believe? Especially since this is but a very small part of the story of the earth's crust.
There are many other such places around the world that have taken millions or even up to 4.5 billions of years to form as they are today, because the Earth is indeed around 4.5 billion years old.
Want more proof? OK, let's look at those once misunderstood radioactive isotopes that started billions of years ago. There are 48 radioactive isotopes with half lives from 1,000 to 100 million years. For those who do not know what a half-life is, it is the amount of time for one-half of the atoms to decay and become elements lower down on the periodic table. Thus Uranium decays and becomes less radioactive as time goes on. This is a well known and reproducible scientific fact that has no sane detractors. It works, and it always works in every experiment. End of story.
If the earth were but 6,000 years old, we would expect to see all 48 kinds of these isotopes present today. But we only find 23. The others have disappeared over the billions of years it would be expected and predicted that they would cease to exist in their original forms.
And believe it or not, there are some who claim, without proof, but merely to excuse this line of argument from their thinking processes, that God made these long-lasting isotopes disappear, and that God did this without ever telling about it in the Bible! I HAVE TO ASK: If it aint in the Bible, then how can it be true!?!?!?
Science is not meant to replace faith, only to bolster it by discovering truths.
My conclusions? What Creationists believe has had it's day and now has little credence.
OK, I am being sarcastic and that is not my point here. My point is to say to that some people have made claims that Intelligent Design, formerly known as Creationism, is a serious subject for study and that the scientific community, meaning those in that field who are not believers in ID or Creationism, have given it short shrift by refusing to study the claims.
First of all, this is a false notion perpetuated without merit. Creationism has been around for a very long time and has had more than amply opportunity to make good on its claims. However, while Creationist backers begin as does any good scientist, starting with a premise, in this case that God did all of this creation business, and now we will find proof of it, they veer away from good science when they are not willing to set aside their original premise if it proves untenable. Every scientists, on the other hand, is required by the rigors of credible scientific research to start with a premise that something may be true, test it, look for evidence but then must reject an idea if the proof and evidence to back it up are not there. In short, science does look to make an idea true in the absence of evidence, proof and other necessary requirements that back up the idea.
For example, it was once thought that giraffes grew long necks because they decided it was easier to get leaves off higher trees. Of course merely wishing or desiring a new effect such as that does not do anything to make it so. In truth, it was the giraffes with longer necks who were the more fit and therefore more able to breed, and thus giraffe necks became longer generation by generation. Ancient skeletal remains of giraffes show that originally their neck length was more like horses. After a few variations in neck length the trait became more and more common in giraffes and the shorter-necked giraffes lost out. That is consistent with Darwin's predictions.
Darwin's finches all came from the same basic ancestor, but variations changed them into differnt species, unable and unwilling to interbreed, until they were genetically different from both the common ancestor as well as other species of finches on the island. without this variation, Evolution would not be proved, but with it, Evolution as an idea, and later, backed by thousands and perhaps even hundreds of thousand of chains of evidence, was shown to be true. this is more than circumstantial evidence, as well. Observation after observation in the fossil record as well as in our own time has shown Evolution at work. Thus far Creationists have provided no incontrovertible proof of their claims.
If there is indeed a Creator, a God behind all of this, it is not the place of science to either prove or disprove that notion. It is up to religious leaders, thinkers and philosophers to provide evidence of I.D. Thus far, even using some practices which resemble science but which fail the test of being correct science, they have failed to do so, and yet they will tell us that their ideas are worthy of study. Yes, some who have called themselves scientists have provided some ideas for thought, but in the end, each and every one of their ideas has been disproved. Sorry, but that is the truth of it. It is not that scientists are rejecting looking at the ideas brought forth, it is that the Creationists are rejecting sound, scientific and valid denial of their alleged evidence.
If this were a court case Intelligent Design would be rejected on lack of merit. The evidence does not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Evolution is a sound, true version of how the species of the Earth came to be, and neither does it provide for enough evidence to merit going forward with the case for Creationism or Intelligent Design.
I understand that many people have made up their minds on this subject, either for or against Evolution and Creationism, but I stand with those who say that while Evolution has the huge preponderance of proof, evidence and observation on its side, all scientific Theories must be constantly revamped to make them more correct. Evolution is not a finished Theory, but it is basically sound and has stood the long and difficult test of time. Remember that at first, and for many decades afterward, it was not embraced by the scientific community. many people, using many criticisms, did not think it made sense. But as more and more evidence in favor of it was produced, more and more scientists became aware that it was basically a sound Theory and was worthy of study. Since Darwin's time no evidence has been found that refutes the basic Theory of Evolution, while millions upon millions of bits and pieces of evidence have been found favoring the Theory.
In time, perhaps some of the most vocal critics of Evolution will be better able to reconcile their religious beliefs with sound science, much as the Catholic Church had to do in Galileo's and Kepler's time, and even as recently as Darwin's time, when fundamentalist reaction to the Theory of Evolution first began to deny it based upon solely Genesis and other chapters of the Bible.
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Great stuff, Ivan - the whole debate does seem crazy to Europeans. I gave up trying to explain it in the forums, because it becomes very tedious, very quickly. The Greek Orthodox church accepted evolution a long time ago, and adroitly avoids the science vs religion debate. It really is a non-issue, here.
CWB - If Spain does not accept you, we will see if we can smuggle you into Greece :)
Sufi, from what I've been able to learn, Greece is beautiful.
I just think the good ole u.s. of a. is definitely not going to be a happy place for the foreseeable future.
You would like it here - it is seen as very impolite to discuss religion. Politics, on the other hand...you can debate to your heart's content!
Could not comment about US internal politics - all I will say is that if the likes of you, Pam and Ralph need out, you know where we are! Mind you, we are part of the Middle East here, so things are not all plain sailing. :(
Where, please confide, is it "all plain sailing"?
Sadly true, CWB - few places have it easy. Still, Obama's speech today gave a little hope for understanding in this part of the world. Lets hope that the actions match the words.
Ivan the teacher,
This is a great hub and an intelligent argument for evolution.I've stayed away from this type of debate on this forum because it is argued from the position of certainty from either side and I find that impossible.I think you may enjoy a debate available on youtube between Rabbi Boteach and Christopher Hitchens held in N.Y.C. a year ago.The Rabbi does believe in evolution but argues logically and coherently for a creative design that set evolution in motion.
A second testimony worth mentioning here is from the British philosopher Anthony Flew,a strong advocate for atheism who wrote a book in 2004 entitled "There is a God,How the world's most notorious atheist changed his mind" What changed Mr.Flew's mind was the scientific data points and the biological argument of integrated complexity.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNkxpTIbCIw
I have always had a problem with the biblical story of Noah and I grew up in the church my mother worked in and began questioning this story in particular and was never able to get a response that satisfied my curiosity.If you had a scale large enough to hold all of the birds,reptiles,mammals and amphibians on one side and all of the insects on the other,the insects outweigh the others.How is it possible that Noah found a male and female specimens of every single species and put them on a boat?The typical answer is that you simply have to have faith that the story is true.So I wanted to become an archeologist and find the truth myself.I am not an archeologist but I haven't allowed that to keep me from digging for the truth and I still study the arguments with great curiosity and interest.On the side of Darwinism I find the theory lacking to truly describe the beginnings and complexity of life and how the species evolved to include butterflies and brontosaurus's.Neither side can positively end the debate and it's unfortunate that civility is often lost in the crossfire.
Finally,there is another man that I find to be positively brilliant,is named R.C. Sproul.I had the chance to listen to a lecture by Ben Stein at a political function last year and here is a part of a conversation these two brilliant minds had,not too long ago:
Excellent hub. I have added a link from my own. Good explanation. Unfortuately, in England there has been serious efforts to re-introduce creationism into the class room.
Ivan:A little lengthy :-) but absolutely right on!There is a "creator:" serendipitous physics.Homo/sapiens, sapiens just appeared in terms of geological time. Our understanding of "reality" is in it's infancy.Anthropologically speaking, as human consciousness evolved, man became aware of his mortality..that was and still is frightening. Fear, superstition and abject ignorance created a "need" for hope. Human imagination ran amuck. To fill that "need," primitive man conjured, from surrounding cosmic mysteries, "things" it could lay blame upon or seek spiritual assistance from. As man's sophistication expanded, his beliefs in the supernatural followed suit. This cosmopolitan "god" thing is now an abstract,amorphous concept. Contemporary supernatural divinities are created in the same manner as those of primitive man: "fancy."Micro evolution has been empirically proved. Macro? Still a theory. Given time, it will also be proved.
Will read more of your stuff Ivan.
Qwark
Excellent hub. How do you explain a "creationist museum" in one of the most developed countries in the world.
Hi Ivan...Enjoyed your response. You say: "I have however, to believe in god if I am to profess that god exists,...." What is this "god" thing? there is no scripture in any of the major monothesitic writings that factually defines this "god" thing. Down thru history, all of man's "gods" have been imagined. Why would this contemporary "god" thing have been created any differently? If there is a creator, it is serendipitous physics.
"You are a child of the universe no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should." ..Desiderata
Great Hub - thanks
Love and peace
Tony
Another great read - thanks for writing it :)
How do you define evolution? I believe in micro variation within a kind, but you guys just piggyback that and say "Well give it millions of years anything can become anything." That takes a lot of faith, and Macroevolution has never been observed just assumed, and implied. Which completely distorts the Scientific method.
What is the evidence that shows that mutations can supply an increase new information rather than just modifying existing genetic information?
What evidence suggests that mutation and natural selection changes have no limits? What evidence shows a transitional form with partially developed, nonfunctional features (such as 10% of a wing)?
Why have new body plans not developed since the Cambrian explosion?
I've never heard an answer to these questions from an evolutionists. Please respond.
First off thank you for your response, I've done my research from evolutionary atheist and Christian sources and the Creation wins!
"The idea of natural selection sounds great when considering deer. The deer that can sense danger the quickest and run the fastest are able to escape the predator on a more consistent basis. However, other examples on the "evolutionary tree" have many laughable flaws. One of the best examples of evolution nonsense is the thought that a wingless bird began to evolve a wing. Why this would occur is not answered by evolutionists. The wing stub did not make the bird more adaptable to his environment. The first wing stubs would be much too small for the bird to fly. Why would a bird evolve wing stubs that are useless? This is backwards from the evolutionary theory of natural selection, which states that birds adapt and change in order to survive better in their environment. The bird with a half-size wing is placed at a disadvantage in its environment. Why would the bird continue for millions of generations to improve a wing stub that is useless? The Theory of Evolution is based on natural selection of the most adaptable member of a species, not the weakest. A bird with a useless wing is at a severe disadvantage. This is the opposite of natural selection. According to natural selection, the members of the bird species with the smallest useless wing would be the most adaptable and most likely to survive in the largest numbers. According to the theory of natural selection birds could never evolve to fly. Evolution is simply nonsense." Even you can agree this make little sense. Evolutionists say birds grew hollow bones for less weight in order to fly. How would a bird pass this long-term plan to the millions of generations in order to keep the lighter bone plan progressing? The idea that birds or anything else has million-generation evolutionary plans is childish. The evolutionary concept of growing a wing over millions of generations violates the very foundation of evolution, natural selection.
Birds aren't the only species that proves the theory of natural selection to be wrong. The problem can be found in all species in one way or another. Take fish for example. We are told by evolutionists that a fish wiggled out of the sea onto dry land and became a land creature. So let's examine this idea. OK, a fish wiggles out of the sea and onto the land, but he can't breathe air. This could happen. Fish do stupid things at times. Whales keep swimming up onto the beach where they die. Do you think the whales are trying to expedite a multi-million generation plan to grow legs? That concept is stupid, but let's get back to the fish story. The gills of the fish are made for extracting oxygen from water, not from air. He chokes and gasps before flipping back into the safety of the water. Why would he do such a stupid thing? This wiggling and choking continues for millions of generation until the fish chokes less and less. His gills evolve into lungs so he can breathe air on dry land, but now he is at risk of drowning in the water. One day he simply stays out on the land and never goes back into the water. Now he is a lizard?" Nonsense.
What about Chromosomes? Evolutionist say we came from ameba but a n ameba has 50 chromosomes humans only have 48 isn’t that the opposite, and chickens have more than humans too. Sorry man you're wrong maybe you need to get of the atheist fan page and find out why you're wrong.
Not every evolutionist is atheist, but every atheist is an evolutionists. I believe a true Christian believes the bible is the Word of God and true and only true believers can fully understand it thanks to the Holy Spirit. Those "Christians” you speak of must believe Genesis is a mistake or untrue there for they don't believe the bible is the word of God. So they a simply goats posing as sheep. The bible answers every question posed when is comes to creation of the entire universe and is use as the perfect historical document filled with kings kingdoms, prophecy and scientific facts that man has just figured out in the last 100 years. http://www.bibleone.net/print_SF6.html, http://www.newchristian.org.uk/scientificfactsinbi Science and the bible don't conflict, but Cosmic evolution, Chemical evolution, Stellar and planetary evolution, Organic evolution, Macroevolution are(in my opinion) not science, but government funded religions. Science is the observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena. Looking at all the evidence and coming to a conclusion. Not taking a theory and if something doesn't fit the theory disregard the evidence as stick to the theory polystrate trees,Mercury the moon, orbit, the stars, Autism, the eyes, human skin, teeth, breastmilk, DNA, The Grand Canyon are some examples where evolution fails. I don't plan on changing your mind but if you ever have day to kill. Check out some creation science. I appreciate your words, but I’ll stick with Creation and the Creator, beside it being true the fact are on our side. Thanks again.
Two more examples of ignoring the facts and sticking with the Theory
Great hub, Ivan! I have a hunch we're not too far away from being able to prove Darwin's theory. I've never felt that it conflicted with religious teachings; I can see evolution and the Bible peacefully co-existing. I think it all comes down to how the Bible is interpreted -- and about who wrote it and why.
Love your Boris pic! (Long-time moose and squirrel fan here.)
"It does mean an idea that has been proven time and again to have deep merit."
No, it doesn't mean that at all. The definition of the word 'proof' is radically different than the word 'theory'.
As a life-long pianist, and professional musician, I can tell tell you that I spent in excess of 20 years studying "music theory." I can tell you that nothing I learned was a "guess" as to how chord progressions "might work," but was rather a study in how they actually functioned. We have "music theory," "germ theory," and gravitational theory," none of which are really arbitrary "guesses." People love to invoke semantics to generate confusion over terms that have multiple meanings, much to the detriment of all. This just to say that I thoroughly enjoyed your hub, and looking forward to reading more of your writings.
great hub, your detractors seemes quite ignorant. I think even their questions were cut and paste jobs from Aig.
I certainly do not nor can I understand Darwins theory of evolution. There has to have been and still is a Creator. It is strange how some people will rather believe in Evelution and the making of this planet and life as being a mere coincidence. Check out my hub at--> http://hubpages.com/hub/Evolution-a-Christians-Per


















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ColdWarBaby 2 years ago
Very well done Ivan.
I hope you're ready for the flak you're bound to get for this. My last one, which you commented on several times, was purposefully not as pro-science as this and I still got a bit of grief for it.
Still, this is very good. As you know, I side mostly with the science camp myself. That doesn't mean I can't let others believe what they like, as long as they're willing to extend the same courtesy to me.
So, how do I go about getting political asylum in Spain?